Verizon and me

[Uther]

Here we go again.

In 2010 I got Verizon FIOS. Some may recall that at the time I posted some pictures of their ditch digging equipment stuck in my back yard.

A few weeks ago I had my lawn irrigation system repaired. No new installation, just repaired the existing installation. Somehow that lead to the fiber optic cable being cut.

Now I have a $500 bill from Verizon for cable replacement. My contention is that they were careless in the initial cable installation, not taking care to bury it deep enough and route it around existing installations and protect it in any shape whatsoever (the cable is buried without a sleeve or anything).

Furthermore ,the people sending me the bill has nothing tying this to me. There was no consultation, no paperwork. So I'm not sure how this is going to end, but it is not going to be me paying this without a fight. I'm also not inclined to just toss this over the wall to the sprinkler company - they were nice people and it is a huge bill.

At the moment it is where the CMR people (whoever they are) will "maybe" get someone from Verizon to call me. I'm not holding my breath.

Anyone here has any information on how to dispute a 3rd-party bill just handed off like this? I don't want to get my credit rating dinged for non-payment, and I'm pretty happy to go to court to argue my case, but I don't want to get a collections/non-payment issue on my credit record - those I hear are very difficult to get off.

So, how do I conduct this business dispute?

[JKTex]

Did you call Verizon to come fix it? I assume it is on your property, so it's the fiber to your house?

It's funny you posted this. I recently started a major landscape project that in small part included installing drains etc. I knew where Verizon laid the fiber to my house, which was in a drainage easement which I pointed out and cautioned that I'd likely be installing a drain pipe at some point (reminds me how long I put this off ). They told me it'll be no problem, they know what they're doing. First warning sign.

Since I knew where it was, I was careful digging in those areas, but I was surprised to find, not only how shallow it was, but how it seemed to meander that 70'-80' of that part. They cut deep enough to hit roots of some shrubs that I ended up loosing, yet the fiber was probably 4"-6" deep at the most. Luckily I was being careful enough that the 2 times I ran in to it, I didn't cut it and usually found it first. I was digging by hand too; I'm laborious like that.

They were Verizon employees and complained like crazy about the guy that ran that department for this area. I thought that was funny, especially after they had to come back out to bury an 8' loop they left above ground back then. I never found that loop when I dug for the drain, but I know it's coiled up somewhere under there.

[JKTex]

Oh, and the other funny part of you posting this is, after finishing one side of the house completely, I ran the irrigation system and that zone was all by dead. I walked around and found a gusher coming up from under a newly planted tree (same area as the drain above). So fresh mulch and all, I started digging and to make a long story short, I had crushed a 1/2" class 200 line with a piece of rebar I used as a stake to give that Japanese Maple some support with all this wind. So last weekend I ended up nearly 2'-3' down (I built that side up) partly under a new tree, repairing a pierced and crushed section of irrigation pipe......that happened to be laid on top of a larger distribution pipe, and the controller wire. I guess I got lucky that's all the damage I did.

[Uther]

I'm reading up on the Damage prevention laws: http://www.texas811.org/one-call-law

Now I'm questioning. The code mentions if I plan to dig deeper than 16 inches. The sprinkler heads are much shallower than that. SO Verizon is at fault for not burying the cable to a depth of 16 inches here?

Edit: Even if they are, I have another issue.

How do I deal with the bill? I don't want a collection agency or credit ding on my pristine credit history.

And If I can make Verizon's life difficult for burying the cable at an inadequate depth, so much better for me. After having dealt with Verizon customer support, I have no love for them.

[Common Sense Al]

How do I deal with the bill? I don't want a collection agency or credit ding on my pristine credit history.

As far as I know, if you don't pay, they can ding your history. I don't think there is a way to stop them - except by paying the bill (but even then they could put an erroneous thing on your credit report which you would have to dispute to get it off).

The $500 definitely seems excessive.

[Uther]

A thought just struck me. I doubt Verizon went through the dig notification rigmarole before they buried wither the first or the second cables.

I also think they have a duty to avoid messing up my sprinkler lines, etc.

Now how do I go about exploring this?

[Mrs T]

I probably have more information than can fit in this forum, I'll try to hit the high points. Similar situation. 1" roto-till to seed grass in an area where we had taken a dead tree out, sliced right through the FiOS line. Right as it happened, we started looking more closely, and the line was at the surface in multiple areas in other parts of our lawn. This was in October, so I guess with the drought and non-mowing, we hadn't noticed it before.

To backtrack, when they installed the FiOS line, it was Housley Communications as the sub-contractor. I was home the day they came and watched their 'professional' installation which consisted of 3 guys, each with a standard garden spade that they would stick in the ground, wiggle it back and forth, and tuck the cable down into the crack.

State and local law (National Electrical Code) dictates that the lines be installed 18" below grade. I was attuned to this because the Town of Argyle had a road paving project delayed because all of the FiOS lines in the area weren't at the correct depth and had to be moved - delaying the project considerably - and Verizon had to move them on their dime.

The first person I dealt with at CMR after receiving my bill made the following arguments:

1. "Lines come to the surface all the time". (Our home is over 25 years old and the only line to come to the surface is the 6-year old FiOS line).

2. Verizon isn't responsible for MAINTAINING them at that depth. One of his reasons was that they can't just come on your property without permission. (Funny, because I wasn't here when they buried the repaired cable). He said that the law doesn't say "maintain" at 18" only "install". Actually, the law says that there is a minimum COVER requirement of 18". It makes no distinction that there is any relief for that depth after installation.

When Verizon was here repairing the line, I pointed out where it was at the surface in the other areas of our lawn. The repairman said that it was common and that the contractors "didn't always get them as deep as they should".

I have been dealing with CMR since December. I thought it odd that Verizon never even tried to collect. After an initial conversation and exchange of emails, with no response from CMR, I sent a certified letter with my arguments and requested to only communicate with them via U.S. mail. I have had phone calls from two other people since then, and they want to hear the whole story over again - they want me to get the landscaper to pay, they want to know exactly what the repair man said, etc. Each time I ask them to correspond with me only in writing and I still have received nothing other than the original claim.

It is important to dispute the charge in writing, to protect your rights and credit report. If you would like the National Electrical Code excerpt (which is what most areas adopt as their ordinance), PM me and I will email it to you.

[Uther]

I will most certainly get in touch with you. I have just completed my first rejection letter. I did forget about certified mail, thanks for reminding me.

I'm in a harassing mood, I wonder if I can get the town code compliance officer to go after Verizon for burying the cable too shallow?

[Brian]

Wow, and to think I was about to sign up for Fios. I might not after reading this thread.

[Uther]

Actually, go ahead and sign up. the product is the absolute best out there. Just don't deal with the company or their customer support. Be an informed consumer and keep an eye out for what they do (like where they bury your cable).

[Pipeline]

Same problem. Line buried 1 inch deep. I cut it, burying a dog. Verizon has it repaired thru Housley, who did the original installation. I bitched when they again buried it 1 inch deep, and was told to take it up with Verizon. VZ sends me a bill for 500 bucks. I send certified letter saying "not my problem". That was 2 years ago and haven't heard from them since, with no further bills. Don't know about the credit report thing, as I don't use credit for anything, and don't care about my rating. Cash talks, credit walks. Even my Depends are cash purchases, Xtra large (size 42 extra butt).

[Rosemary]

Even my Depends are cash purchases, Xtra large (size 42 extra butt).

[YellowRose]

Fios service is fine, but I too had the same problem. First installation had traversed across the yard. Irrigator cut it and found out the hard way that the repair was not a matter of a fiber splice, but a total new installation from the Verizon vault to the house box. Housley told us that they were only required to bury 4". Hard to believe so shallow, but any time you are having work done around the yard, call 811 or and have them locate the line.

[JKTex]

Wow, and to think I was about to sign up for Fios. I might not after reading this thread.

Cable companies are no better. It's anyone burying utility lines that are not part of development or in some way being overseen/inspected by the Municipality or someone that makes them do it right. Doing it like this (FiOS running the fiber to your house) on private property, we're the only authority.

I had Comcast (or whoever it was at the time) destroy several large specimens in my landscape (1st sign was 2 days later when I had a 10'-12' Juniper laying on the ground) because they uses a trencher "the ground splitter type deal) about 18" deep along my back fence for a neighbor. It is a utility easement. However, they stuck the cable about 2-3" deep in the 18" trench and called it a day. In the end, they didn't need to destroy landscape to do it.

[DigThis]

The Utilities code and the One Call law in Texas requires excavators (anyone digging to 16" or deeper) to call to get utilities marked.
Verizon does not want to burden itself with the expense of burying its fragile fios cable and just covers it over with some dirt. It would not matter if you buried it to 24", the cable is fragile and even if you are aware of the location it is pretty hard to not cut it once you reach where it is sitting. How do you dig in near a FIOS cable especially in Texas sticky clay soil? THe FIOS cable is not like telephone wire or coax, which both are easy to splice in the field. Fiber optic is extremely difficult to splice in the field. THey end up resinstalling the entire run. So, Verizon figures they can just get away with shallow installs, reinstall it when it breaks and then recoup some of the cost by selling the bill to a third party like CMR, who speciallizes in hounding people into paying. Notice that Verizon has no hand in billing you for this. Call Verizon, they have no knowledge of such a charge. (Of course somebody does... but tactic here is that they immediately sell the bill to this bill collector - who is not even in located in Texas. Like it was said earlier, the bill they send has only vague language as to the grounds on which they are pursuing you. Its just, there is damage caused by you and you must pay up. No analysis or discussion of why, how, when etc.

Of course everyone here who has damaged a FIOS cable realizes how absured it is to expect people to not damage a cable that sits just inches beneath the surface. My lawn aerator pulls 4" plugs and so can easily reach deeper than the 2-3" depth we are seeing them install this at. What happens if I want to till my lawn, plant a shrub, fix my sprinkler, check for grubs, all of which likely do not require digging deeper than 16"? Verizon knows the fragile FIOS cable is going to get cut. It should be in a conduit but that would be prohibitively expensive. But it is ridiculous to think I need to get my FIOS cable marked everytime I want to aerate my lawn, knowing full well that I still stand an almost 100% chance of cutting it unless I avoid like a 2 foot swath around where it may or may not lie, especially because the spray markings are not exact and neither is the detector.

I don't believe they have a leg to stand in collecting, its just fear and bullying until most people pay up. There appears to be no other code governing this other than the law that requires excavators to call. Less than 16" is not excavation. Look it up. Texas Utilities code, chapter 251.

Verizon wants to protect itself from bad pubilicity so they sell the bill to CMR who's sole purpose in life is to collect that debt. The debt purchasers/collectors have nothing to gain by backing down, they only exist to pursue the payment of those bills. I doubt you can reason with them. They know exactly what the game is - its like they have the houses odds that a high percentage will fold and pay up. I suspect their entire business model is built around exploiting this entire situation. They take a cut and Verizon washes its hands of the complication.

The next step would be to complain to our Texas congressional representatives. This tactic is deplorable and needs to be reigned in. Instead of passing the buck onto its customers, there needs to be laws requiring installation to a minimum of 16". HOwever, I'm sure they have already sent the lobbying team in to convince the legislature how prohibitively expensive that would be and how it would break their backs financially. Fine. Just require Verizon to take care of its cable when it gets cut. It's probably still cheaper to fix the few that get cut. But there should be some added consumer protections to stop this predatory - and very sneaky - tactic.