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Gas Prices - here we go again?

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Re: Gas Prices - here we go again?

Postby Common Sense Al » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:14 pm

sandy brake wrote:A typical-sized 500 megawatt coal-fired electricity plant in the United States (ucsusa.org)
puts out each year:
1. 3.7 million tons of carbon dioxide.
2. 10,000 tons of sulfur dioxide.
3. 10,200 tons of nitrogen oxide.
4. 500 tons of small particles.
5. 220 tons of hydrocarbons.
6. 720 tons of carbon monoxide.
7. 125,000 tons of ash
8. 225 pounds of arsenic, 114 pounds of lead, 4 pounds of cadmium, and many other toxic heavy metals. Mercury emissions from coal plants are suspected of contaminating lakes and rivers in northern and northeast states. In Wisconsin alone, more than 200 lakes and rivers are contaminated with mercury.

The “ace in the hole” you are referring to. Is it perhaps six feet under?


Sandy Brake,

Thanks for the info (assuming it is accurate given your history of inaccuracies :D )... that is why I am a big fan of 'clean' and renewable energy, or at least 'clean coal', if there is such a thing.
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Re: Gas Prices - here we go again?

Postby sandy brake » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:39 pm

Inaccuracies, Al? Really? And this coming from someone who believed the crap in the anti-PPH video you posted, which really was probably a segment for SNL...
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Re: Gas Prices - here we go again?

Postby Pipeline » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:44 pm

sandy brake wrote:A typical-sized 500 megawatt coal-fired electricity plant in the United States (ucsusa.org)
puts out each year:
1. 3.7 million tons of carbon dioxide.
2. 10,000 tons of sulfur dioxide.
3. 10,200 tons of nitrogen oxide.
4. 500 tons of small particles.
5. 220 tons of hydrocarbons.
6. 720 tons of carbon monoxide.
7. 125,000 tons of ash
8. 225 pounds of arsenic, 114 pounds of lead, 4 pounds of cadmium, and many other toxic heavy metals. Mercury emissions from coal plants are suspected of contaminating lakes and rivers in northern and northeast states. In Wisconsin alone, more than 200 lakes and rivers are contaminated with mercury.

The “ace in the hole” you are referring to. Is it perhaps six feet under?


Gotta role with SB on this one. But SB (gender uncertain) forgot to mention radioactive trace elements released from burning coal. As the rest of the Earth's crust, coal also contains low levels of uranium, thorium, and other naturally occurring radioactive isotopes whose release into the environment leads to radioactive contamination. While these substances are present as very small trace impurities, enough coal is burned that significant amounts of these substances are released. A 1,000 MW coal-burning power plant could have an uncontrolled release of as much as 5.2 metric tons per year of uranium (containing 74 pounds (34 kg) of uranium-235) and 12.8 metric tons per year of thorium.

There you go, give me more gas wells and NG power plants. And good news:

http://www.bseec.org/content/hydraulic-fracturing-and-hydrologic-cycle



Read it and weep.
Last edited by Pipeline on Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gas Prices - here we go again?

Postby Common Sense Al » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:46 pm

sandy brake wrote:Inaccuracies, Al? Really?


Yes, REALLY!

Hey, since you enjoyed that anti-PP video so much, have you shown it to your co-workers at work? I'm sure they would like to see it... then you and them can all bust out laughing. Be sure to show it to your boss too and explain how great PP is. :wink:
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Re: Gas Prices - here we go again?

Postby Pipeline » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:41 pm

Common Sense Al wrote:
that is why I am a big fan of 'clean' and renewable energy, or at least 'clean coal', if there is such a thing.


Any "idiot" (including me) has to be a fan of clean and renewable energy. But, time to wise up Al. Clean and renewable energy ain't happening anytime soon. In the next 2 decades, as third world economies develop, the planet will need an x amount increase in Tera watts of power. That's a little more than a few KiloW's, wind or solar might provide. Where will this power come from if renewable energy is only providing about 1% of world energy needs today? Do you realize the amount of power a Tera watt is? It's like trying to count the trillions of our National debt.

Clean coal, forget it. Without major breakthroughs in solar technology with price and techno advances, we are stuck with fossil fuel for a while. Wind has it's own issues with aesthetics on the landscape, birdies that get whacked, and backup power when the wind don't blow.

The only current alternative to fossil fuels is, the lights don't always turn on when you flip the switch, sometimes the food in the fridge goes bad, and maybe we revert to a "3rd world economy".

As in Dune, "the spice must flow". But, I digress.
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Re: Gas Prices - here we go again?

Postby Common Sense Al » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:03 pm

Pipeline wrote:Clean and renewable energy ain't happening anytime soon.


If you mean 100% of power comes from clean and renewable sources, then I'd agree... but that's no reason not to gradually increase energy from clean & renewable sources. The amount of energy hitting the earth from the sun far exceeds what is needed now or in the future.

Of course we'll need fossil fuels for a while... but we also need to invest in sources other than fossil fuels... and rely on fossil fuels less and less and renewable sources more and more.
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Re: Gas Prices - here we go again?

Postby YellowRose » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:41 am

Agreed Al. Technology will enable solar and wind to be our main source of energy. Just can't come soon enough, though. Fossil fuels are a finite source of energy and I can't wait for the day when OPEC does not exist.
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Re: Gas Prices - here we go again?

Postby JKTex » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:53 pm

But y'all are missing something, fossil fuels mean way too much power and money (one in the same) to bother with any type of renewable energy beyond empty babble and gross a waste of money to make people think there's more to it. (Obama)

If that weren't so, the Government wouldn't keep putting huge mandates on fossil fueled vehicles, and would actually mandate what we already have for technology, but doesn't come with the power, politics and money.

BTW, "clean coal". :D What's clean is that new plants are more clean than old ones in what they control. Lignite is lignite, and we've got a bunch of it that doens't need to be trucked of trained in. Between that an NG, we can produce a lot of energy, a lot cleaner than we do today.

I won't even talk about the pollutants being produced just over our borders trashing our environment.....
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Re: Gas Prices - here we go again?

Postby skiing1974 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:21 pm

Speaking of gas prices and the beautiful concept of the free market, why are gas prices controlled (increases and decreases) by the government in so many countries in the world? Any thoughts to that from our friends here who completely oppose federal government controlling anything? How is the concept of pricing for the basic things for life (gas, bread, flour, oil, sugar, water) controlled by the government (and nothing else being controlled by them)? This BS that when 10 rocks get thrown in the Middle East or Iran puts a ship in the canal over there and 2 hours later prices on the pumps jump is nuts. Who exactly protects the consumer from price gauging?
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Re: Gas Prices - here we go again?

Postby JKTex » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:24 pm

skiing1974 wrote:speaking of gas prices and beautiful concept of the free market, why are gas prices controlled (increases and decreases) by the government in so many countries in the world? any thought sto that from our friends here who completely oppose federal government controlling anything? How is the concept of pricing for the basic things for life (gas, bread, flour, sugar, water) controlled by the government (and nothing else being controlled by them)? this BS that when 10 rocks get thrown in the Middle East or Iran puts a ship in the canal over there and 2 hours later prices on the pumps jump is nuts. Who exactly protects the consumer from price gauging?


The power of necessary commodities. Someone has to control it, and there are Governments all over that are more than willing to exploit that power, I mean handle that task. :D
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Re: Gas Prices - here we go again?

Postby Pipeline » Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:39 pm

skiing1974 wrote:Speaking of gas prices and the beautiful concept of the free market, Any thoughts to that from our friends here who completely oppose federal government controlling anything? How is the concept of pricing for the basic things for life (gas, bread, flour, oil, sugar, water) controlled by the government (and nothing else being controlled by them)?


A totally free market? How naive, being one of those who totally oppose the guv'ment controlling anything. Widgets and washing machine ( I think we still manufacture a few of those) prices the gov. don't control. Those basic things you mention, the Gov does control. Farmer Joe is guaranteed x amount to grow wheat, he may be guaranteed x amount to not grow wheat. It is called a gov subsidy.
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Re: Gas Prices - here we go again?

Postby Common Sense Al » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:21 pm

It always amuses me to see people say that the solution to everything is just to get the gov't out... then everything would be great and everyone would be living in utopia. And some people say I'm naive. :lol:
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Re: Gas Prices - here we go again?

Postby skiing1974 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:14 pm

I am saying I am for the Gov't controlling gas prices, maybe I wasn't clear...or am I confused and they already control the price, like someone from Gov't meets every 35 minutes with the oil industry to approve the increase or decrease in price? And leave Farmer Joe alone, I am talking Chevron, BP, big sharks.
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Re: Gas Prices - here we go again?

Postby Pipeline » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:43 pm

skiing1974 wrote: And leave Farmer Joe alone, I am talking Chevron, BP, big sharks.


Why leave Farmer Joe alone? He is the guy, the feds are telling to grown corn to create ethanol for our summer blend of gas that will drive the price of gas higher. Leave him alone my pa toot.
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Re: Gas Prices - here we go again?

Postby skiing1974 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:27 pm

Let me then rephrase it for ya. Once they would get big oil under control (or rather get themselves off their you know what), we can go onto farmer Joe. But who am I kidding, with big oil lobbying.
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