Gas Prices - here we go again?

[Pipeline]

Help me out here. Can you name the gas stations on 407 (or 1171 - depends on where you drive) that serve diesel?

Maybe, like, every one of the stations on each road. They have a green, that's GREEN, handle. take a gander sometime.

[Uther]

I'm not a H2 fan. They're all but worthless; H3 is even worse.

Me too. My wife tels the funny story of someone in her office that had an H3 and couldn't fit his golf clubs in it? He traded it in for a Highlander.

[Common Sense Al]

The Prius having an life cycle ending somewhere just under 100k miles with normal maintenance and the H2 being several 100k (as most cars are, if they're cared for).

Oh yeah... I remember now because it was so funny. They estimated the Prius to last like 100K miles and the Hummer double or 2.5x that. It should have been the other way around.

As for the battery plants, I don't buy that they're such a toxic wasteland as the "special interests" would have you believe.

[JKTex]

The Prius having an life cycle ending somewhere just under 100k miles with normal maintenance and the H2 being several 100k (as most cars are, if they're cared for).

As for the battery plants, I don't buy that they're such a toxic wasteland as the "special interests" would have you believe.

It's funny how you can flip sides with "special interests". If it has to do with something you like, the evil special interests are on the other side. Even if it means similar environmental issues in 2 different industries; you can place the evil doers on the side that fits best. If it's O&G, evil is on their side destroying the environment and our health. If it's battery production, there is no evil environmental or health risks, it's evil rumors started by evil doers. Even with proven, long term issues that come up all the time around old battery plants, it's evil rumors and slander.

BTW, the EOL for the Prius was said to be it's planned EOL based on the technology's used and the feasibility to replace or repair in the future. Whether valid or not, it's what I remember from it. If you can find it, please post. I'd like to look at it closer and find the cracks.

[Common Sense Al]

:lol: It's funny how you can flip sides with "special interests". If it has to do with something you like, the evil special interests are on the other side. Even if it means similar environmental issues in 2 different industries; you can place the evil doers on the side that fits best. If it's O&G, evil is on their side destroying the environment and our health. If it's battery production, there is no evil environmental or health risks, it's evil rumors started by evil doers. Even with proven, long term issues that come up all the time around old battery plants, it's evil rumors and slander.

What's truly funny is how what I say gets twisted, but that's to be expected here.

No one, especially me, said there was no environmental or health risks with battery plants... but when an industry has so much money and power (like oil & gas), then they often use it to get even more money and power, in part by sponsoring their own studies, which of course (almost always) benefit the sponsors, and to heck with the full truth and the consequences on anyone else. If the "battery production industry" gets too much power, which could be likely in the future due to the increase in demand for batteries for electric cars, then I'd be pretty skeptical of their claims too if they were against a new, cleaner technology that is going to compete with them.

Anyway, this stuff seems pretty dangerous (anything as dangerous as this at battery plants?):
Deadly Chemical and Dismal Safety Records Put Millions Living Near Refineries at Risk

[JKTex]

Maybe I missed what you're saying, but it sure sounded like you were doubting the "evilness" of the battery plants. I'm not sure how much bigger the industry needs to get, it's pretty dang big as it is now.

"As for the battery plants, I don't buy that they're such a toxic wasteland as the "special interests" would have you believe."

It's what you said. Unless you are saying it's Hummer lover's that are claiming the battery plant was such an environmental disaster. Of course that would put the Hummer Lover's and EPA on the same side, which seems to contradict an awful lot.

EDIT:

Ok, that was easy! The study was done by CNW Marketing Research and looks like it was one of their most controversial studies. They study included total cost to produce and operate over an expected lifespan. In 2008 they updated the study and with additional data the cost per mile for the Prius dropped just below that of an H2 or H3. I remember it being said originally that Toyota wasn't making any, or even at first was taking a loss on the sale of each one. In another study they also compared a 2002 study to a current 2011 study of a 2001 model to see if the performance and economy data had changed as well as batteries. Looks like MPG's were about the same, being much lower than Toyota originally claimed (and was smacked for and had to stop making the MPG claims they were) but in the 40-45 MPG range being the norm.

Here's some interesting reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNW_Marketing_Research

And this is an article (2007) about the original study by CNW. It's interesting to read the later articles, claims and counter claims and the updated study. You'll find what we'd all expect, twisted words on both sides, including references shifting from H1, to H2 to H3 and obviously, there's a major difference in each one. Same with the miles for the Prius, especially now with over 10 years of data for the Prius (can't believe they've been around that long already). I think the new test comparing to the 2002 study used a 2001 model that had, I think, 209k miles (it's in one of the links) but a lot more that 100k.

http://www.thetorquereport.com/2007/03/ ... icien.html

EDIT AGAIN: Forgot this. I haven't dug through it but it might be interesting. It's CNW's reports as well as responses. So if you need something to read, there you go. I think I'll glance before I fall asleep.

[Common Sense Al]

EDIT AGAIN: Forgot this. I haven't dug through it but it might be interesting. It's CNW's reports as well as responses. So if you need something to read, there you go. I think I'll glance before I fall asleep.

Yeah, something to read when I can't fall asleep but need to... fortunately I usually don't have that problem.

But a "marketing research" company? Hmmmmmm.... don't know about that company, but how can you trust any research done by a company that has "marketing" and "research" in the name?

[neighbor]

Oh yeah... I remember now because it was so funny. They estimated the Prius to last like 100K miles and the Hummer double or 2.5x that. It should have been the other way around.

My GM's go an easy 200k miles before I trade them in. Especially the trucks. I've owned Toyota, and there was no way 200k miles was an option. 100-150k, maybe, but 200k+? No way. Just my experience.

[Uther]

Interestingly enough, the April edition of Consumer Reports just hit my mailbox.

In it they have some detailed analysis of hybrids and electric vehicles. The most notable issue was that they seldom got the claimed distance on electric as the manufacturer claimed. They attributed it to the cold weather during testing, but a range of 65 miles falls a lot short of 100 miles, and if the distance indicator starts out showing 36 miles and then rapidly drops to 19 miles, one would feel insecure. Also, these puppies use electric heaters in the cold (and electric A/C in the heat?), also acting as a drain on the stored electric charge.

As for per-mile costs, they have the following: Chevvy Volt with dealer markup ($48,700), Nissan Leaf ($35,270) and Prius (Somewhere in the region of $25,000).

Their findings on the Volt's recharge is: 13kWh in 5 hours every time they charged it. GM claimed 4 hours with a 240 V supply and 10-12 with a 120 V supply.

They go on to estimate the running costs: Assuming national rate of 11c per kWh and gas at $3.00.

Volt: 5.7 cents/mile in electric and then 10 cents/mile beyond that.
Leaf: 3.7 cents/mile
Prius: 6.8 cents/mile

In contrast, a subcompact Honda Fit costs about 10 cents/mile, but has a purchase price of half what the Volt costs.

[Common Sense Al]

They go on to estimate the running costs: Assuming national rate of 11c per kWh and gas at $3.00.

Volt: 5.7 cents/mile in electric and then 10 cents/mile beyond that.
Leaf: 3.7 cents/mile
Prius: 6.8 cents/mile

In contrast, a subcompact Honda Fit costs about 10 cents/mile, but has a purchase price of half what the Volt costs.

I got that CR issue too but haven't read it. I see you (CR) mentions gas at $3/gal, but $4/gal would be more accurate in many places of the country now and perhaps into the future (but who knows how high gas will go and how long it would stay that way). $4 over $3 is a 33% increase.

I think the Volt is just too expensive and too unproven. I did here that in some parts of the country it can be significantly cheaper due to all the gov't credits (like in CA).

But I still think electric is here to stay and it's only going to get better from here.

The leaf looks pretty cool though.

I also wondered about how heat and AC is done in electric cars... heat must use a lot of power (and so must AC).

I guess it's all about the battery tech and how much electric energy they can store.

[evblazer]

The EV1 from GM used a "heat pump climate control with air conditioning/heating/cabin pre-conditioning" to handle the heating/cooling. I can't speak for the leaf/volt but there are better/worse systems. I remember seeing quite a few old electric VW bug (converted by a small company) and Sebring Commutacars that had either gas or diesel powered heaters up in New England.

If I remember correctly I actually had working A/C in my old S-15 GMC Pickup conversion in TX but I rarely used it. It was a little warm but without the big old furnace under the hood just cracking the windows and having airflow did well enough for me. AC puts a load on every car. Heat not so much since there is so much to spare in most cars but GM's pre heating did well. I've never ever used heat in any car though unless the car was running hot but that is just me. My wife cranks up the heat even when wearing a parka if it is 60 degrees out.

I think very few products of any kind live up to marketing. Many gas cars for most drivers fail to live up to the given mileage so it isn't just electric vehicles. Now it is a much bigger deal for electric vehicles when you are pushing the range. In most cases there is a gas stations every few miles. At the same time some would argue there are hundreds of times more charging opportunities than gas stations. If you can't get access to any outlets for sure what does it matter how many there are so mostly it is just hte one in your garage and maybe just maybe one at work or a friends house. Maybe base your friends on your commute route so you have places to plug in while you "visit" Gas/diesels can get in this situation too but even if you drive an auto or ride a motorcycle somewhere that gas is scarse you can easily carry a little extra in a suitable container and problem solved.

So say you take a long trip in your big gas guzzler of a ford fiesta that normally takes 3/4 a tank and one day you end up on blinking red empty with the car sputtering on hills because all the high winds, cold, rain and not checking your tire pressure ate up all your gas with 10 miles to go. You simply pull over and fill up at a station. Course that would mostly never happen because you'd see half way you were on half a tank and fill up and put some air in the tires.

Now if you normally use 75% of your range in your EV normally on a trip and hit those same high winds, cold, rain and commited the second sin of EV ownership of not checking your tire pressure and at 10 miles out from your destination your mystically accurate range predictor shows 0 miles you have problem. Yes you just passed 500 viable outlets in the last mile and can probably get to another 500 before your car just stops but you probably can't use any of them. Even if you could you'd likely get some 120v outlet and need to charge a couple hours to get 10 miles of range.

So that is where 100 miles isn't enough if sometimes you can get only 65. It's advertising/marketing though. You could get 100 maybe. One of my old EVs would get 40 maybe. I'd drive to work, drive home and it was a 36 mile round trip if I remember correctly. During harsh winters that huge hill going that last 1/4 mile to my driveway involved alot of hope sometimes. I never didn't make it but once or twice had to go down a flat side street and stop to give the batteries a rest. When the voltage recovered a bit I'd get it up to speed and take on the rest of the hill.

None of it is going to solve the gas prices though or their effects. EVs aren't going to ship goods and certainly not be in every garage in my lifetime. They are neat due to very little maintenance as long as your batteries go well which is bad for dealers and the ability to potentially power from anything as other resources join the power grid or your home. Lots of folks power electric vehicles entirely off of solar or wind on their house/garage.

[Fred]

Came across a site with interesting EV comparisons... Battle of the Batteries: Comparing Electric Car Range, Charge Times

The listed charging times got me thinking... Consider that the average American drives ~15k miles a year. If you buy a Prius, you are going to spend about 145 days a year charging it to drive those 15k miles (assuming the estimated 3 hour charge at 110v for its 13 mile range). If you get an EV with more range like the BMW, you'll charge it 150 days a year (26 hour charge at 110v for 109 miles).

Sooo... say you average 45 mph futzing around town. You will spend 26 hours charging the BMW for about 2.5 hours of driving. Hmmm...

[Common Sense Al]

Came across a site with interesting EV comparisons... Battle of the Batteries: Comparing Electric Car Range, Charge Times

Thanks, interesting link with a good info on the models available or soon-to-be.

And yes, those charge times are something to think about... which is why a 220V circuit will probably be "a must". I also hope there can be some easy way to make charging automatic by just pulling up to or parking over some type of unobtrusive (and safe) charging device.

Out of all those vehicles listed, if I were to have to buy one, I'd probably go for the plug-in Prius even though the electric range is only 13 miles... because I can always fill up with gas when needed and it's one of the roomier electric vehicles... and will probably sell well, which means better support... and Prius has been around a long time now (more proven). It just seems like the most practical choice for normal use given today's environment.

In the future, however, I hope electric ranges will increase, charging stations will be more numerous, reliabilities will be better proven/known, more models will be available, etc... then I would feel more comfortable buying a full electric and never having to go to a gas station and buy foreign fossil fuels.

[evblazer]

High power charging is a must! If you look at the leaf it says 80% charge in 30 minutes and some others aren't far behind. That requires a big 440/480? volt drop though so most can't do that at home but charging stations could. The last 20% are tricky because you have to charge slow so the batteries in series all fill up at the same rate/time.
I really gotta blow part of my 401k on a nice tesla roadster before the $ is worthless

[Uther]

Sometime last year Tesla came though DFW on a promotional tour. I went to see them in Plano. I asked about the chargin issues and they were driving RV-camp to RV-camp. Rather inglorious for a roadster.

I think it was 6 hours driving per day, and then stops to recharge.