Local Dems turn out at joint precinct meeting

[josh]

You made a statement earlier: "....In a secular society there are many "truths", yours, mine, and others."

I just want to know...is that statement true?

Yes, absolutely.

Thank you for answering. But that begs the question. Is that statement - …there are many truths… - "true for you" or is it also "true for me"? If it is true for everyone, haven’t you just contradicted yourself? Because I thought you said there are "many truths". And if something is “true for everyone”…well, there can’t be “many truths”.[/unquote/]

Josh,

Obviously you haven't noticed that I placed "truth" in brackets meaning I don't subscribe to that kind of terminology. What I am trying very hard to make you understand that this is not a unilaterally Christian society, there are Jewish, Moslem, Hindu, Shamans, Ateists, Agnostics and they work just as hard as you do, they pay taxes just as much as you do, and they die for this country just like any other. Pushing your "truths" or beliefs (the term I prefer) down the throats of others who have beliefs other than yours, is no different than to those we declare war. Look around you and you will find a Moslem doctor treating your child, a Hindu teacher at school, a Jewish businessman owns the company you work...etc.. Do you think those people have any lesser rights in this country just because they do not believe in your "truth" and prefer to stay with their own "truths"? During Rita and now Ike, I have opened up my house to people whose beliefs are totally against my beliefs - Do you think it mattered to me or them?

For L-Dog:

My husband and I worked very hard for what we have and have not received a penny from the system. Yet, I believe my taxes should go to help poor, underprivileged families of this country, without any regard to what they believe is the "truth". Helping at Church, Mosque, Synagogue, Temple, etc is good but you are helping only those around you and the need is for organized dependable continuous help, that is why taxes are important. For the same token, I would like to have safer streets, so I wouldn't mind my taxes going to police forces. I also help my family who have some members in need and take care of my mother (she is in another country) totally out of my pocket without even considering the fact that I am paying taxes to help some of your parents health and welfare. Am I liberal or conservative by your standards. I prefer to believe I am neither.[/quote]






nyuuce:
You have constructed a completely make believe belief system for me - one I do not hold. Please show me where I have argued for forcing my beleifs about Christianity on anyone. Please show me where I have said I will only welcome Christians into my home. Show me where I have said this is a "unilaterally Christian society" (whatever that means). You have constructed a nice little argument to attack but I hate to tell you...its not my argument. You may have the wrong message board, not sure.

I'm not sure what you mean by unilaterally Christian society? If you are questioning what the majority religious beliefs of the US are - they are a matter of public record. I think it was posted on here recently. If you question to belief system of the founding fathers that too is historical record. They were by in large theists.

Even if I were to take your side of the argument and say that "Christians force their beliefs on people". You are down right confused if you think having a group of Mormons or Christians from the local church knock on your door during dinner is the same as a group of Islamists who cut people's neck off for not converting are equal. Confused!

[esemerson]

You are right. Taxes are part of being an American. Are you telling me there is no tax rate that would cause you to say enough is enough? What if the income tax rate for your bracket - whatever that is - was raised to 70%? Silly I know. But the point is NOT that we should pay zero taxes. The point is not that we should not pay significant taxes for certain things. The point is mostly that we pay too much in taxes. And when taxes go up to pay for social items that benefit a certain few then I will complain. I will complain if my taxes go up to pay for the bailout of a certain few fat cats. I will complain if they go up to pay for the welfare of able bodied citizens. What tax rate is too high for you. Clearly, you are not there yet.

yes it is silly.

clearly you are someone who lives under their means. this is smart and i respect that. can you honestly say that you are not willing to pay a slight increase in taxes (same rate prior to the Bush cuts) to help the country get out of the funk it is in? the middle class is obviously burdened by the inflation and skyrocketing energy costs. we need to act to reduce our national debt. that is going to be paid by the taxpayer like it or not. wars are not cheap either and we are running two of them.

you are are obviously up on current events. spending cuts and higher taxes seem to be the way out. just what do you propose?

[nyuce]

Josh,

For the first time here I agree with you that you are confused.

Go back and read what you have written so far you will find what you are askind me to do. I won't do your homework.

Your last statement is so righteous too.

There is manay neighbourhoods in countries where majority is of islamic belief and yet they have a church, a synanogue and a mosque built side by side. Did you know that in observance of Sabbath, Jewish women do not cook or light fire to cook in Saturdays...and in those countries moslem women used to go from streets to street calling out "Fire!" meaning they will light the fire and cook the meal for the Jewish women if they need it.
Frankly, in my family most of the beliefs I mentioned are represented and that makes us richer (no not in monetary terms and believe me that is not the most important thing in our lives) .

We celebrate Christmases (..es because I have some Ofrthodox Christians in my family as well), Yom kiippur, Hannukah, Easter, Eids, New Year, etc etc...

[Common Sense Al]

you are are obviously up on current events. spending cuts and higher taxes seem to be the way out. just what do you propose?

Well, you didn't ask me but I'll answer. We already pay too much taxes (well, at least many of the people who actually do pay, especially when you add up all the various taxes and hidden taxes). I propose the US lives below its means for a few decades and pays of debt (what a concept!)... but I don't see that ever happening.

Before they even have the THOUGHT of raising taxes, they need to get their spending under control first!

[nyuce]

Hey! I am an Old Timer now!!!

Wait until the weather gets damp and my arthritis hurt!

[nyuce]

An the counter wrong!

Look at the number of messages for my last two (or three) postings

[josh]

You are right. Taxes are part of being an American. Are you telling me there is no tax rate that would cause you to say enough is enough? What if the income tax rate for your bracket - whatever that is - was raised to 70%? Silly I know. But the point is NOT that we should pay zero taxes. The point is not that we should not pay significant taxes for certain things. The point is mostly that we pay too much in taxes. And when taxes go up to pay for social items that benefit a certain few then I will complain. I will complain if my taxes go up to pay for the bailout of a certain few fat cats. I will complain if they go up to pay for the welfare of able bodied citizens. What tax rate is too high for you. Clearly, you are not there yet.

yes it is silly.

clearly you are someone who lives under their means. this is smart and i respect that. can you honestly say that you are not willing to pay a slight increase in taxes (same rate prior to the Bush cuts) to help the country get out of the funk it is in? the middle class is obviously burdened by the inflation and skyrocketing energy costs. we need to act to reduce our national debt. that is going to be paid by the taxpayer like it or not. wars are not cheap either and we are running two of them.

you are are obviously up on current events. spending cuts and higher taxes seem to be the way out. just what do you propose?

Spending cuts and lower tax rates. My proposal. At the least, spending cuts and the same tax rates. Go ahead and close up tax loopholes. I dont want people getting out of paying wha they owe either.

[esemerson]

Spending cuts and lower tax rates. My proposal. At the least, spending cuts and the same tax rates. Go ahead and close up tax loopholes. I dont want people getting out of paying wha they owe either.

nor do I but we can't have more tax cuts while we are in Iraq. No way. Not only that there are health care initiatives to pay for and 'green collar' jobs to create.

[skiing1974]

josh, Al,
given you approve current wars, given they were in US interest, how do you plan on supporting them for the next 10 years with cutting taxes?

[josh]

Josh,

For the first time here I agree with you that you are confused.

Go back and read what you have written so far you will find what you are askind me to do. I won't do your homework.

Your last statement is so righteous too.

There is manay neighbourhoods in countries where majority is of islamic belief and yet they have a church, a synanogue and a mosque built side by side. Did you know that in observance of Sabbath, Jewish women do not cook or light fire to cook in Saturdays...and in those countries moslem women used to go from streets to street calling out "Fire!" meaning they will light the fire and cook the meal for the Jewish women if they need it.
Frankly, in my family most of the beliefs I mentioned are represented and that makes us richer (no not in monetary terms and believe me that is not the most important thing in our lives) .

We celebrate Christmases (..es because I have some Ofrthodox Christians in my family as well), Yom kiippur, Hannukah, Easter, Eids, New Year, etc etc...

I'm sorry. But for me, your credibility is on the line here. Show me where I have argued for forcing my beliefs on someone. Please be clear in your response. I have strong opinions about lots of issues - as do you. I have never once demanded submission to my point of view either through government dictate or otherwise. You have accused me of such and then have the nerve to tell me to go look up something that doesn’t exist. Time to put your money where your “keyboard” is.


This is your EXACT quote:
"Pushing your "truths" or beliefs (the term I prefer) down the throats of others who have beliefs other than yours, is no different than to those we declare war".

My last statement that you believe is "so righteous":
"You are down right confused if you think having a group of Mormons or Christians from the local church knock on your door during dinner is the same as a group of Islamists who cut people's neck off for not converting are equal".

Your statement was very clear in its meaning. You believe that Christians who push their "beliefs down the throats of others..." are no different than Islamists who crash planes into buildings (i.e. those we declare war on).

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. You have not posted much here and I want to make sure I understand. Do you REALLY believe there is no difference in the actions of these two groups? I understand you have strong beliefs. And I know first hand that people can get worked up about things and say things that they don’t mean. But I am having a very hard time making the connection between Christian proselytizing and the actions of Islamic terrorist! Show me what I am missing.

[skiing1974]

josh,
in your (fair) example, to me, any religion putting pressure on "neutrals" to take on their religion, or convert to their religion, regardless of methods used-is the same. because the methods will one day be the same. methods for one group hundreds or thousands of years ago may be essentially the same as the methods of another group today.

[josh]

josh, Al,
given you approve current wars, given they were in US interest, how do you plan on supporting them for the next 10 years with cutting taxes?

Were I the Presidnet or the lone member of congress I would do the following:
1. Stop federal funding for education
2. Reform social security
3. Reduce welfare funding long term. Short term I would agree to additional spending in areas of technical training, education and other job assistance programs that pay dividends long term.
4. Stop federal funding for the arts
5. Reduce UN funding

Those are a few.

Why is it that we never asked how we would pay for the 50 year occupation of Germany and Japan? Its because you liked those wars. If you thought the Iraq and Afgan wars were "good" I bet you wouldnt be asking these questions - would ya?

[skiing1974]

exactly josh! for justified wars-no problem paying, for ones getting into because of "their" arrogance and vast ignorance-hell no willing to pay.
and yes, you asked earlier, which ones are justified and which are not is and always will be subjective. but "they" need to be held accountable to the citizens who elected them to show the money is spent for a good reason.
i agree on UN funding cut, why fund something you will never accept, respect and follow the rules?-sarcasm alert.

[Common Sense Al]

josh, Al,
given you approve current wars, given they were in US interest, how do you plan on supporting them for the next 10 years with cutting taxes?

Who says I approve? We need to get out of Iraq within a reasonable timetable. And there are plenty more things to cut and trim besides Iraq.

[skiing1974]

sorry Al, I bundle you up with josh sometimes