Obama and Winfrey's Christianity called into question

[Common Sense Al]

You also wrote, "Now if you hear of Christ, and choose to reject/ignore Him, then you are definitely putting your soul at risk. I think you can still get to heaven in some situations, but God will be the judge of that because He knows your soul and conscience."

The consequence for conciously rejecting Christ is pretty clear. I know you're trying to leave some wiggle room (which is shocking coming from you), but there is none in this instance.

I would say the wiggle room comes from whether or not the person "knows" the truth or not. If someone rejects Christ because they, in good conscience, don't believe that is the truth, then there's some "wiggle room"... but if a person "knows" that Christ really is the son of God and believes in God, and even then chooses to reject Him, then I'd say there is no wiggle room unless they change their tune and repent.

[Lantana07]

Dude, are you serious??? "If someone rejects Christ because they, in good conscience, don't believe that is the truth, then there's some "wiggle room"...

That has to be one of the most theologically unsound concepts I think I've ever heard. Did you just make that up off the top of your head??? I will find it really hard to take any theology argument from you seriously if that's really something you believe.

What do you define atheism as? Some who, in good concious, does not believe in God (thus, they don't believe in Christ).

Side note...I'm also pretty surprised you weren't aware of how the Old Testament people gained entry to heaven. I'll assume you haven't read the OT because it's completely about HOW to get to heaven and gain God's favor pre Christ. It was all about the law, which God saw we couldn't keep...over and over and over again. He sent his son to cover us all, past, present and future.

[Common Sense Al]

Dude, are you serious??? "If someone rejects Christ because they, in good conscience, don't believe that is the truth, then there's some "wiggle room"...

That has to be one of the most theologically unsound concepts I think I've ever heard. Did you just make that up off the top of your head??? I will find it really hard to take any theology argument from you seriously if that's really something you believe.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's sound. You should follow your conscience. Yes, it can be wrong, which is why it is important to have a well-formed conscience. If you don't believe that, then you must think all the other religions are going to hell because they have heard of Christ but, in good conscience, have rejected Him. Is that what you think? The Catholic church teaches that people should follow their conscience (but of course that the fullness of truth is only with Christ's church).

What do you define atheism as? Some who, in good concious, does not believe in God (thus, they don't believe in Christ).

Something like that... yes, they can still get to heaven. God is the judge.

Side note...I'm also pretty surprised you weren't aware of how the Old Testament people gained entry to heaven.

What makes you think I am not aware of this?

And on another side note... even though people can still get to heaven with other religions, it is best to follow Christ and have the fullness of truth. And people should use Christ's teachings (correctly interpreted of course) to form their conscience so that it reflects the real truth.

[Lantana07]

I am sort of speechless, Al. What books have you been reading lately? To be honest, these last few posts by you don't really sound like you from what you've written on other topics. You seem to have adopted a, "hey, if it works for you, then believe what you want and you'll get to heaven" attitude. I only wish it were that unfettered. But we both know what the Bible say's on this, Al. What other religions qualify for heaven in your world view? Hindu? They don't believe in one god...Budhists? They don't either...What makes a person good enough for heaven if they don't believe in the creator?

Your comments beg numerous other questions:
1. How does one obtain a well-formed concious? How do you know when you have it?
2. The Bible mentions (numerous times) that there is only one way to heaven. If other religions teach otherwise, then yes, by the Bible I read, that means they have chosen the path that will lead to not salvation but to damnation. Not my words, bro. What do you believe? Why bother being a Catholic at all? Or any religion?
3. How exactly do you surmise that people who actively don't believe in God (atheists) will be in heaven? Curious where you heard that...

This is fascinating to me...

[josh]

Lantana07
Welcome to the Catholic Church! I am no longer surprised in their all inclusive theology - Al has been saying the same thing for a while here on this mb. Yes - it is SHOCKING - that a professed atheist can still get to heaven on the Catholic plan. You and I can paste chapter and verse here that shows the opposite is biblically true...but Al will trump you with "thats not what the Pope says". Take it from me...might as well stop this debate now.

As for those that got to heaven prior to Christ...Al, you should read the Old Test. Totally different system for attonement back then. God covered their sin through animal sacrifice. He also set up about 300 commandments that they had to follow as well. Bot animal sacrifice and the "law" was done away with when Christ came.

[Common Sense Al]

I am sort of speechless, Al. What books have you been reading lately? To be honest, these last few posts by you don't really sound like you from what you've written on other topics. You seem to have adopted a, "hey, if it works for you, then believe what you want and you'll get to heaven" attitude. I only wish it were that unfettered. But we both know what the Bible say's on this, Al. What other religions qualify for heaven in your world view? Hindu? They don't believe in one god...Budhists? They don't either...What makes a person good enough for heaven if they don't believe in the creator?

I found this:
http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3212

There's no list of religions... there's no requirement that you HAVE to be a certain religion.

We all know that those who suffer from invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law which have been written by God in the hearts of all men, if they are prepared to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can, by the power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life. For God, who knows completely the minds and souls, the thoughts and habits of all men, will not permit, in accord with His infinite goodness and mercy, anyone who is not guilty of a voluntary fault to suffer eternal punishment (no. 7).

Your comments beg numerous other questions:
1. How does one obtain a well-formed concious? How do you know when you have it?

Excellent question. I suspect it is by aligning yourself to God's church... if you want a well-formed conscience, then you need a good foundation to form it, and that's what God's church (Catholic church) provides. How do you know when you have it? I'm not sure if it is ever complete on earth... it is a journey... but an very interesting topic to research.

2. The Bible mentions (numerous times) that there is only one way to heaven. If other religions teach otherwise, then yes, by the Bible I read, that means they have chosen the path that will lead to not salvation but to damnation. Not my words, bro. What do you believe? Why bother being a Catholic at all? Or any religion?

Again, you have to interpret the bible correctly in its full context, and if you do that, then you do not HAVE to have certain beliefs or religions to get into heaven (see the pope's quote above). So why be Catholic? Because the truth matters and it's best to know the truth. You can receive graces that would not otherwise be available. The true church can guide you in God's path, not paths made up by man and man's religions and those corrupted by man. Also, we are "designed" to try to seek out the truth.

3. How exactly do you surmise that people who actively don't believe in God (atheists) will be in heaven? Curious where you heard that...

First, we are not to judge people... so saying that all athiests will end up in hell is judging people. God knows what is in the conscience, knows if they've tried to be good people, even though they may make the mistake (in good conscience) of not believing in God there is always the possibility that they can get to heaven. However, they'd be better off believing and following Christ.

This is fascinating to me...

Yes, it is very interesting. Maybe we should get a group together for an interesting discussion (if truly interested)? We could spend more time on it.

[Common Sense Al]

As for those that got to heaven prior to Christ...Al, you should read the Old Test. Totally different system for attonement back then. God covered their sin through animal sacrifice. He also set up about 300 commandments that they had to follow as well. Bot animal sacrifice and the "law" was done away with when Christ came.

I'm fairly certain that Catholic teaching is that the gates of heaven were closed at the time of original sin and not reopened until the sacrifice of Christ. So when they OT people died, they went to a place of waiting until Christ opened the gates of heaven/paradise with his sacrifice.

http://www.dsj.org/dsj/valleyissue.asp?id=33&story=1516

[coglinehome]

Al,

I think the best thing we can do for you at this point is pray for you and your family. Wow, the things you say... I didn't know Catholics believed the things you are saying. I'm almost lost for words.

[love Lantana]

love lantana,
great post, for both believers and non believers!

Thanks!

[Toad]

There is a difference between informing someone that you believe they have bad information and judging. I can tell someone that the book I believe in says that they are condemned. That does not mean that I am condemming them.

[josh]

There is a difference between informing someone that you believe they have bad information and judging. I can tell someone that the book I believe in says that they are condemned. That does not mean that I am condemming them.

Excellent post. I think that is what I was trying to say...fewer words is often better!

[josh]

And with this post.....I am now in 10th place for most posts!!!! Thank you...thank you all!!

[jlbates]

And with this post.....I am now in 10th place for most posts!!!! Thank you...thank you all!!

Not for long, my friend.

[Hog Caller]

And people should use Christ's teachings (correctly interpreted of course) to form their conscience so that it reflects the real truth.

I believe you have it 90 percent correct. You should follow Christ's teachings, but leave your conscience out of the picture. Your conscience will lose the battle every single time if you set your mind to do something it initially says not to do. After a very short battle it will rubber stamp all of your plans. People give the conscience too much credit as being a fierce warrior for your soul when in reality it is only a wet noodle.

[Common Sense Al]

You should follow Christ's teachings, but leave your conscience out of the picture. Your conscience will lose the battle every single time if you set your mind to do something it initially says not to do. After a very short battle it will rubber stamp all of your plans. People give the conscience too much credit as being a fierce warrior for your soul when in reality it is only a wet noodle.

Yes, I agree... one must be very careful when going by their conscience. If they know Christ's teachings and are trying to justify or rationalize doing something different, then that's a serious problem. One needs to put God first and try to bring their conscience into alignment with God, and not try to rationalize what they want to do or try to bring their conscience into alignment with their selfish desires. I think many people who rationalize know "deep down" what they're doing... they just don't want to admit it.

Anyway, bottom line is that people need a solid "rock" to build/form their conscience on... or it could end up way out of wack. Too many people today don't have that "rock".