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California's top court overturns gay marriage ban

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Postby matj6876 » Thu May 22, 2008 12:27 pm

Al wrote:
matj6876 wrote: think you mean morals here instead of conscience? My conscience (by definition) is dictated by the alignment of my actions with my morals.


No, I meant conscience as in "the inner sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives, impelling one toward right action".

If one's inner sense of what is right and wrong is incorrect (leading them to do things that are immoral but that they think are OK/moral), then they have a "malformed conscience". We probably all do to some degree... but some consciences are pretty far off the mark.


OK - I think we are down to semantics now so I will concede the fact that my conscience/morals (either or both) are "way off the mark" when it comes to yours and vice versa.
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Postby josh » Thu May 22, 2008 1:52 pm

Only someone who has been wronged can forgive. I cannot forgive the man who stole your money - only you can forgive him (in the earthly sense). I cannot forgive someone who does wrong to my neighbor and does nothing to me. That is up to my neighbor.

So with that in mind, lets apply that to spiritual / sin forgiveness. When I sin, according to the Word, I am not sinning against man, but against God. Man cannot forgive me of my sins any more than I can forgive the man that stole your money. Only God can offer forgiveness because he was the one who was wronged. His eternal law was broken, not man's.

When the full Gospel is examined, the enormity of message is that "No man comes to the Father but by me". Salavation is not of the Saints, but of Christ. It doesn not say "but by me...and you eleven gathered here in this room".

The forgiveness here in this passage is not eternal forgiveness of sins. It is personal, one on one early forgiveness (I forgive the man who stole my wallet). It cant be any other way when you take the full gospel, not just a verse in context. This is a key reason why you should "never read a bible verse".
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Postby Common Sense Al » Thu May 22, 2008 1:59 pm

josh wrote:The forgiveness here in this passage is not eternal forgiveness of sins. It is personal, one on one early forgiveness (I forgive the man who stole my wallet). It cant be any other way when you take the full gospel, not just a verse in context. This is a key reason why you should "never read a bible verse".


Sorry josh, it's not personal forgiveness it's talking about. Consider the significance of Jesus breathing on them with the Holy Spirit right before He says what He says... pretty significant. Don't disregard that.

I do agree that you should not read one verse and take it by itself though. The entire bible needs to be interpreted in the context of the entire bible.

Anyway, I don't want to get into more unfruitful religious debates. If you really want to know, then the answers are already out there or PM me.
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Postby josh » Thu May 22, 2008 2:51 pm

If someone other than Christ can offer eternal forgiveness of sins. Then Christ cant be the only way to heaven. I dont see how you can have it any other way. Either there is one and only one who can justify us before God, or there are many. But I will continue this debate through PM. I recognize it is of little interest to most on this board. I will "reform" you one of these days! :wink:
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Postby Common Sense Al » Thu May 22, 2008 2:55 pm

josh wrote:If someone other than Christ can offer eternal forgiveness of sins. Then Christ cant be the only way to heaven. I dont see how you can have it any other way. Either there is one and only one who can justify us before God, or there are many. But I will continue this debate through PM. I recognize it is of little interest to most on this board. I will "reform" you one of these days! :wink:


If Christ wanted to give the authority to forgive sins to someone, then why couldn't he? That's what He did. The authority comes from Christ... so you could say it is through Christ. Without Christ, there would be no authority for a priest to forgive sins, but there is because He gave it. So my question then is, why can't Christ give such authority if He wanted to?

Good luck "reforming" me! :D
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Postby HEAD » Thu May 22, 2008 2:59 pm

Al wrote:
josh wrote:I will "reform" you one of these days! :wink:
Good luck "reforming" me! :D

Don't be sassy with those of us who are "reformed". We were here first. :lol:
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Postby dawniej » Thu May 22, 2008 3:37 pm

Ok I am not sure I can read this thread anymore. I get so infuriated that people feel they have the right to judge other people as to what is right and wrong - what gives you the right to stop people from being happy. Do you honestly believe that people choose to be gay just to annoy all of you?
I also get tired of hearing people quote the bible at me as to the reason it is wrong you cannot just choose the parts of the bible that you wish to follow and ignore others. I am not going to say much more but give you all a link to read from the internet talking about just these issues. All I will say is how many of you who preach it is wrong for gays to marry have eaten shrimp or lobster!!!!!

http://www.fallwell.com/selective%20quotation.html
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Postby linux_is_cool » Thu May 22, 2008 3:47 pm

dawniej wrote:Ok I am not sure I can read this thread anymore. I get so infuriated that people feel they have the right to judge other people as to what is right and wrong - what gives you the right to stop people from being happy. Do you honestly believe that people choose to be gay just to annoy all of you?
I also get tired of hearing people quote the bible at me as to the reason it is wrong you cannot just choose the parts of the bible that you wish to follow and ignore others. I am not going to say much more but give you all a link to read from the internet talking about just these issues. All I will say is how many of you who preach it is wrong for gays to marry have eaten shrimp or lobster!!!!!

http://www.fallwell.com/selective%20quotation.html


I don't care who you are, that there's funny! What makes it funny is the fact that it is so true. Good find dawniej
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Postby josh » Thu May 22, 2008 4:39 pm

I needed only one glance at the link you sent to see how confused you are. The link starts off with the book of Leviticus - Old Testament. And I can already tell from the way you framed your opening statement that you are going to cite the old testament law, which was handed down to the Jews, as being contradictory to the way we as Christians live today.

That is ignorance on your part. And I don’t mean to say you as a person are ignorant, but that you have a deep, fundamental ignorance of the Bible. And that is ok…because my ignorance has only diminished slightly over the years. But the key here is to know what you are talking about before throwing up evidence that you don’t understand.

The Old Testament law (the first 4 or 5 books of the bible, of which Leviticus is one) was given to show the Jews how to live and abide by God's law under a theocracy. Leviticus in particular has a primary focus and that is dealing with cult-sacrifice, priesthood, and ritual purity. In Leviticus, it talks about ritual purity, not always moral purity. The abolition of eating pork was so the priest and Jews would be ritually pure when they came to temple (as an example). You are probably familiar with the Ten Commandments. There were in fact over 300 commandments given to the Jews – the Mosaic law.

But then came Jesus. Jesus did away with the Old Testament laws by giving himself as the pure sacrifice, once and for all, for man’s sins. With Jesus, there was no longer a need to bring pure animal sacrifices to the temple as atonement for our sins. He became the sacrifice for our sins. And because of that, Christians are no longer bound by the Mosaic law. So you see, it isn’t being hypocritical on our part for not keeping the Mosaic Law. We are no longer bound by that law.

When you say “what gives you the right to stop people from being happy”, what do you mean? Do you mean to say that anyone who is pursuing happiness has a right to pursue that without interference? What about the killer who truly is happy when he kills? Of course you don’t mean that. So what you mean is that I don’t have a right to stop people from doing what you perceive to be morally good things. But then, that puts you in the position of defining what is morally good. And I think I hear you trying to tell me and others that we don’t have a right to make moral definitions. So just curious – can you clarify for me?

I apologize if you have encountered Christians who do not truly reflect the love of Christ. I know I have come across plenty of judgmental Christians who treat those they view as immoral with contempt. That is truly not Christ like.
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Postby jlbates » Thu May 22, 2008 5:34 pm

dawniej wrote:Ok I am not sure I can read this thread anymore. I get so infuriated that people feel they have the right to judge other people as to what is right and wrong - what gives you the right to stop people from being happy. Do you honestly believe that people choose to be gay just to annoy all of you?
I also get tired of hearing people quote the bible at me as to the reason it is wrong you cannot just choose the parts of the bible that you wish to follow and ignore others. I am not going to say much more but give you all a link to read from the internet talking about just these issues. All I will say is how many of you who preach it is wrong for gays to marry have eaten shrimp or lobster!!!!!

http://www.fallwell.com/selective%20quotation.html


That really is pretty funny! I have lots of opinion on this topic, but can't bring myself to post a response. I get a headache just thinking about it. :roll:
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Postby Bacchus2b » Thu May 22, 2008 6:45 pm

jlbates wrote:
dawniej wrote:Ok I am not sure I can read this thread anymore. I get so infuriated that people feel they have the right to judge other people as to what is right and wrong - what gives you the right to stop people from being happy. Do you honestly believe that people choose to be gay just to annoy all of you?
I also get tired of hearing people quote the bible at me as to the reason it is wrong you cannot just choose the parts of the bible that you wish to follow and ignore others. I am not going to say much more but give you all a link to read from the internet talking about just these issues. All I will say is how many of you who preach it is wrong for gays to marry have eaten shrimp or lobster!!!!!

http://www.fallwell.com/selective%20quotation.html


That really is pretty funny! I have lots of opinion on this topic, but can't bring myself to post a response. I get a headache just thinking about it. :roll:



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Postby Common Sense Al » Thu May 22, 2008 9:03 pm

David E. Miller wrote:A-Men!!! ADMIN - Anyway to add a "View First Unread Post" function? I get a headache re-reading all the drivel to get to the new drivel.


It's already there... click on this by the thread title to go to the newest drivel: Image
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Postby Common Sense Al » Thu May 22, 2008 9:13 pm

dawniej wrote:http://www.fallwell.com/selective%20quotation.html


No doubt people use misinterpreted selective quotes from the bible... which is why correct interpretation and understanding is so important.
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Postby HEAD » Thu May 22, 2008 10:37 pm

Al wrote:which is why correct interpretation and understanding is so important.

That is impossible. Every denomination has their own interretaion, every person has their own interpretation.
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Postby matj6876 » Thu May 22, 2008 10:40 pm

HEAD wrote:
Al wrote:which is why correct interpretation and understanding is so important.

That is impossible. Every denomination has their own interretaion, every person has their own interpretation.


Mr HEAD you have not been paying attention - even I can answer that one. The correct interpretation is the true Catholic interpretation if you need any clarification in this matter Al can point you to iVatican (the home of all things truly catholic online) or you can join him and his catholic brethren to become enlightened (or morally corrected in my case). We all have a standing open invite. :wink:
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