Catholic/Protestant teachings

[Lantana07]

By the quotes you've added to validate your points it's appears you don't understand the contextual meaning behind some of the verses.

It's rather surprising to me that you have chosen the quotes you have to suggest that works are needed for salvation. Google "fruits of the spirit" for an in-depth education on what that means. Google "heavenly rewards."

Al, show me where, anywhere, there is validity to the idea Mary was sinless. You can't. Show me where you need to go to a priest for forgiveness of sins. You can't. Quoting a verse that tells you an apostle was given the power at that time to forgive on God's behalf does not make that a requirement. Save yourself the gas, get on your face and ask God himself to forgive you in your own bedroom.

That concept and the other's I mentioned are all over the catholic links you posted. I'm not the one saying these things, bro, your church is. Spend a little time reading what you link to.

Christ himself called people to salvation by his saving grace. But in order for us to be saved, (and unless you know something I know, Jesus isn't walking around today saving people on his own), we must accept him. Period. That's it. End game.

And I have no clue what you are alluding to with this quote other than it's the great commission. You know, make fishers of men. "1 Cor 9:16 "Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel".

Your Revelation quote is not refering to salvation, it's referring to God's holy judgement at the second coming. We will ALL be judged at that time for every act and every thought. The good works are a reflection of the blessing of the new covenant and a fruit of the spirit. But you are not damned to hell if you accept Christ because the minute you do, your name is written in the Lambs Book of Life. Then your heavenly rewards are based on what actions you took on earth.

In Matthew 25, who do you think are the "righteous"? Those who have accepted Christ. Yes, Al, fruits of the Spirit produce works but they are not, NOT salvation requirements. I don't think you get that concept, though. Also see Matthew Henry's commentary on this topic.

In Matthew 19:21, you left out the final line and the true meaning of the verse, "Then come follow me." Then come be a follower of Christ. C'mon, Al. What you are posting here is a bit too selective and leaves out the critical before and after piece of the scripture!!

2 COR 5, again, is not referring to salvation. It's referring to how we'll be judged by Christ based on what we did. But it's NOT a condition for salvation. It's a condition for heavenly rewards. Totally different.

I'm not comfortable with your contextual understanding of the scriptures you call out. Yes, faith is sufficient. Works are added to faith by the spirit and we will receive our various rewards in HEAVEN based on what we accomplish on earth, but the works can't get you there. Works are a reflection of faith, not a requirement for passage through the pearly gates.

I am NOT anti-works, but I'm trying to wrap that idea up. I feel pretty strongly that any Christian will be moved by the spirit to perform works of good for his fellow man out of genuine concern for him and a strong desire to honor God. It's how Jesus works through us to the world. We are witness not by what we say, but by what we do. But those works are only an off-shoot of our professed faith, not a duty of it. Doing a good work for man (i.e. ourselves as if some box we have to check) is pointless and self-centered and not honored by God. Doing a good work for God out of selfless love is a reward and is itself rewarded. Do you see the difference?

[Common Sense Al]

By the quotes you've added to validate your points it's appears you don't understand the contextual meaning behind some of the verses.

I'd say the same about your understanding of the quotes I posted.

It's rather surprising to me that you have chosen the quotes you have to suggest that works are needed for salvation. Google "fruits of the spirit" for an in-depth education on what that means. Google "heavenly rewards."

I'm aware of the fruits of the spirit, but I don't see how they are applicable to this discussion.

Al, show me where, anywhere, there is validity to the idea Mary was sinless. You can't. Show me where you need to go to a priest for forgiveness of sins. You can't.

By your interpretation of all the passages I had posted earlier, making it rather clear how important it is to do works, then I bet you'd have a reason to dispute a passage that simply said "Mary was sinless.". There is no such passage just like there is no passage that says "on this rock I build my 1000s of churches and denominations that can interpret my word any way they want to".

That concept and the other's I mentioned are all over the catholic links you posted. I'm not the one saying these things, bro, your church is. Spend a little time reading what you link to.

If there is a Catholic site that believes in a concept that the Catholic church does not believe in, then that doesn't make it a Catholic belief. It has to agree with the Catholic church. Catholic's can't make up stuff for their church. You don't join the Catholic church and then decide to implement your own morality over God's (some people try).

Christ himself called people to salvation by his saving grace. But in order for us to be saved, (and unless you know something I know, Jesus isn't walking around today saving people on his own), we must accept him. Period. That's it. End game.

Yes, that we must except Him is true, but that's not the end of the game.

And I have no clue what you are alluding to with this quote other than it's the great commission. You know, make fishers of men. "1 Cor 9:16 "Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel".

What I am alluding to is that preaching the gospel is a work. He didn't say "just believe in me and do nothing else". He wants people to spread the word - it's a Christian's duty and it's a work.

Your Revelation quote is not refering to salvation, it's referring to God's holy judgement at the second coming. We will ALL be judged at that time for every act and every thought. The good works are a reflection of the blessing of the new covenant and a fruit of the spirit. But you are not damned to hell if you accept Christ because the minute you do, your name is written in the Lambs Book of Life. Then your heavenly rewards are based on what actions you took on earth.

So, you are saying that one can "accept Christ" and then live their life killing innocent people, continually breaking the 10 commandments intentionally, not being repentant and not asking for forgiveness, and still be saved? That doesn't make any sense.

In Matthew 25, who do you think are the "righteous"? Those who have accepted Christ. Yes, Al, fruits of the Spirit produce works but they are not, NOT salvation requirements. I don't think you get that concept, though. Also see Matthew Henry's commentary on this topic.

I think the concept you are missing is that without works, faith is dead. Someone who accepts Christ would do his works. How can someone accept Christ and then not do what he asks? How can there be faith and acceptance of Christ without works?

In Matthew 19:21, you left out the final line and the true meaning of the verse, "Then come follow me." Then come be a follower of Christ. C'mon, Al. What you are posting here is a bit too selective and leaves out the critical before and after piece of the scripture!!

Actually, what I left out supports works. Jesus told the man what to do (works) and then said "come follow me" (another work). He didn't say "just believe in me and accept me". "Following" is an action - a work. Over and over again he tells people what they should do.

Works are added to faith by the spirit and we will receive our various rewards in HEAVEN based on what we accomplish on earth, but the works can't get you there. Works are a reflection of faith, not a requirement for passage through the pearly gates.

Again, how can one have faith and not do works? With all those passages I quoted, it should be clear how important works are.

I am NOT anti-works, but I'm trying to wrap that idea up. I feel pretty strongly that any Christian will be moved by the spirit to perform works of good for his fellow man out of genuine concern for him and a strong desire to honor God. It's how Jesus works through us to the world. We are witness not by what we say, but by what we do. But those works are only an off-shoot of our professed faith, not a duty of it. Doing a good work for man (i.e. ourselves as if some box we have to check) is pointless and self-centered and not honored by God. Doing a good work for God out of selfless love is a reward and is itself rewarded. Do you see the difference?

Yes, I agree with all that except when you say works is not a duty. Works is a duty of a Christian. This, at least to me, is very clear by what works Jesus says to do. Without doing God's works, you do put your soul at risk. The greatest commandments are to love God and to love your neighbor. These are commandments, not options. How can one possibly obey those without doing works? The Catholic church is right on when it stresses the importance - the Christian duty - of works. Without doing works, you put your soul at risk.

[josh]

For skiing and the others in the peanut gallery...what is your position. Atheist, Agnostic, other? Just curious.

[matj6876]

Peanut gallery checking in:
Agnostic
"Strike me down!"

[Common Sense Al]

Peanut gallery checking in:
Agnostic
"Strike me down!"

At least you're not an atheist.

[Lantana07]

"Without doing works, you put your soul at risk."

Wrong. Flat out wrong. That equates to earning heaven and that's not possible. Becoming a Christian through acceptance is all that's required to gain entry to heaven. Yes, your work is not done at that point, but at that point you are promised entry.

[Common Sense Al]

"Without doing works, you put your soul at risk."

Wrong. Flat out wrong. That equates to earning heaven and that's not possible. Becoming a Christian through acceptance is all that's required to gain entry to heaven. Yes, your work is not done at that point, but at that point you are promised entry.

No, it doesn't equate to earning heaven. You don't earn heaven by acceptance/faith either because you can't earn it at all.

James 2:14-16 "What good is it, my brothers if you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you. If a brother is naked and lacks daily food. If one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm and eat your fill', and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."

I rest my case!

[jlbates]

I might as well chip in from the peanut gallery - agnostic as well.

[josh]

Ok...so Agnostic as in "you CANT know the truth" or Agnostic as is "you CAN know the truth, but you just are not convinced". It is actually an important distinction.

[Lantana07]

Thank you. For resting your case.

The Spirit makes you open to accepting...man, you just simply don't understand what it is that Jesus was saying.

We can get into Calvanism vs. Free Will if you really, really want to.

[Lantana07]

Agnostic...

I had no idea there so many variants of agnositc belief:

Agnosticism can be subdivided into several subcategories. Recently suggested variations include:

Strong agnosticism (also called hard agnosticism, closed agnosticism, strict agnosticism, absolute agnosticism)—the view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of an omnipotent God and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience.
Mild agnosticism (also called weak agnosticism, soft agnosticism, open agnosticism, empirical agnosticism, temporal agnosticism)—the view that the existence or nonexistence of God or gods is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold judgment until/if more evidence is available.
Apathetic agnosticism (also called Pragmatic agnosticism)—the view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of God or gods, but since any God or gods that may exist appear unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic anyway.
Agnostic theism (also called religious agnosticism)—the view of those who do not claim to know existence of God or gods, but still believe in such an existence. (See Knowledge vs. Beliefs)
Agnostic atheism—the view of those who do not know of the existence or nonexistence of God or gods, and do not believe in them.[7]
Ignosticism—the view that a coherent definition of God must be put forward before the question of the existence of God can be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition isn't coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist view that the existence of God is meaningless or empirically untestable. A.J. Ayer, Theodore Drange, and other philosophers see both atheism and agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and agnosticism accept "God exists" as a meaningful proposition which can be argued for or against.

Who knew...

[Common Sense Al]

We can get into Calvanism vs. Free Will if you really, really want to.

No, thanks... I need to get more work done.

[Bacchus2b]

We can get into Calvanism vs. Free Will if you really, really want to.

No, thanks... I need to get more work done.

Al, How do you get any work done? I also work out of the house but I barely have time to read all the threads much less respond without neglecting my business.

[Common Sense Al]

Al, How do you get any work done? I also work out of the house but I barely have time to read all the threads much less respond without neglecting my business.

FiOS internet makes me so much more productive.

[jlbates]

Ok...so Agnostic as in "you CANT know the truth" or Agnostic as is "you CAN know the truth, but you just are not convinced". It is actually an important distinction.

I was not and am not joining the debate, just responding to a request for info from the peanut gallery. I know you're trying to suck me in but you can't.