California's top court overturns gay marriage ban

[Common Sense Al]

So we're back to the fact that right now, although they are unable to help it, it's not a concious choice they should not follow the lifestyle becuse "it hurts people"? How is it hurting you?

Person X murders Y, perhaps in some other state. I don't know X or Y. You don't understand "how it hurts me". Are you saying that makes it moral because you don't understand how it hurts me?

[josh]

There could be a choice involved and maybe there is not. What about people who lived a homosexual lifestyle then stopped? Or people who lived a hetero lifestyle, messed around with homosexuality for a while, decided hetero was who they were, back and forth, etc, etc. Seems to be a choice there - right? Certainly there are people who claim to have homosexual tendencies from the time they were born. Ok - maybe that is not a choice. But dont sit there and tell me that all people engaged in homosexual activities had no choice in the matter. Patently false!

None of that has anything to do with the topic at hand. Should govt. provide a special right to those who want a marraige license to marry someone of the same sex. Two homosexual, "committed" couples have no more right to govt sanctioned marriage than I have to marry my best friend from high school who I dearly love. There is not State benefit to that relationship.

You are trying to bring a morality issue in to play and that has nothing to do here. I think by doing so you only weaken the arguement because the overwhelming "consensus morality" in the US is that homosexuality is wrong. The problem with that is that many people choose to believe that because it is wrong morally, they have a right to pursecute homesexuals...nothing could be farther from the truth. Whether you are gay, think you might be gay, want to be gay sometimes...whatever. We are all children of God and deserve to be treated equally. That says nothing about whether anyone deserves special government recognition.

Again. Explain to me reasons why two "committed" homosexual couples should have a right to govt licensed marriage, but two college roommates cant, or a man who wants to marry three women cant?

[matj6876]

So we're back to the fact that right now, although they are unable to help it, it's not a concious choice they should not follow the lifestyle becuse "it hurts people"? How is it hurting you?

Person X murders Y, perhaps in some other state. I don't know X or Y. You don't understand "how it hurts me". Are you saying that makes it moral because you don't understand how it hurts me?

Al - Are you being intentionally obtuse? Surely you don't equate Gay marriage to murder! In your example innocent person Y is dead. Therefore innocent people are harmed, it's immoral I get it. Mr & Mr Smith get married (or joined in civil union with equal rights etc.. etc..) and how are you (the collective "you" as one of all of the non involved people in the deal) harmed? How is anyone harmed?

[Common Sense Al]

Al - Are you being intentionally obtuse? Surely you don't equate Gay marriage to murder! In your example innocent person Y is dead. Therefore innocent people are harmed, it's immoral I get it. Mr & Mr Smith get married (or joined in civil union with equal rights etc.. etc..) and how are you (the collective "you" as one of all of the non involved people in the deal) harmed? How is anyone harmed?

Good... I'm glad you see the immorality in murder even if you don't see "how it hurts me". We can work from there.

Now, to answer your question, I said the answer was on Google... but since you don't want to ask I will go ahead and search for you... here are just a couple of good links.

http://www.catholic.com/library/gay_marriage.asp
http://www.familyresearchinst.org/fri_edupamphlet7.html

And of course keep in mind that we are members of society. We do not live in isolation. The things we do affect society. Bad things harm, good things help.

Unless you really want to know why it is immoral and how it harms society then there's no point in just arguing. I'm not changing my beliefs on this since they are based on God's truths and teachings.

[matj6876]

Josh - That is a great post. I respectfully disagree with parts of it but you present a much more compelling and cohesive argument than screaming "SINNER!" from the church rooftops.

There could be a choice involved and maybe there is not. What about people who lived a homosexual lifestyle then stopped? Or people who lived a hetero lifestyle, messed around with homosexuality for a while, decided hetero was who they were, back and forth, etc, etc. Seems to be a choice there - right?

People choosing or people confused? Like those regular heterosexual people who decide they want to be married, then don't, then get married again?

Certainly there are people who claim to have homosexual tendencies from the time they were born. Ok - maybe that is not a choice. But dont sit there and tell me that all people engaged in homosexual activities had no choice in the matter. Patently false!

I agree and would not claim that all people engaged in homosexual activities have no choice in the matter.

None of that has anything to do with the topic at hand. Should govt. provide a special right to those who want a marraige license to marry someone of the same sex. Two homosexual, "committed" couples have no more right to govt sanctioned marriage than I have to marry my best friend from high school who I dearly love. There is not State benefit to that relationship.

This is the heart of where I don't agree with you. I don't see it as special right or recognition. Just recognition of a relationship, whether it is 2 men or 2 women, that in my eyes, can have just as much benefit to the state or society as one between a man and a woman.

You are trying to bring a morality issue in to play and that has nothing to do here. I think by doing so you only weaken the arguement because the overwhelming "consensus morality" in the US is that homosexuality is wrong.

With respect, I was answering the morality issue brought up by Al. I don't see it as a morality issue (but that would mainly be because I do not see it as immoral). As an obvious follow on from that, I personally think that it is a shame that the consensus morality in the US is that homosexuality is wrong. However I do not disagree with you.

The problem with that is that many people choose to believe that because it is wrong morally, they have a right to pursecute homesexuals...nothing could be farther from the truth. Whether you are gay, think you might be gay, want to be gay sometimes...whatever. We are all children of God and deserve to be treated equally.

I'm not going to march hand in hand with you down the "children of God" aisle (pun intended), not quite my viewpoint, but I will agree with your sentiments here too.

Again. Explain to me reasons why two "committed" homosexual couples should have a right to govt licensed marriage, but two college roommates cant, or a man who wants to marry three women cant?

I don't have all the answers here. My gut initial reaction would be that today two college mates (they may not be room mates) of opposite sex can get married today if they like, how would that be different?
And as I already stated, obviously in the hugest of minorities here, if three consenting adults what to commit to a multi-party marriage I have no problem with that.


And Al - I concur you and I are fundamentally on different sides of this debate. You aren't changing your viewpoint and I'm sticking with mine.

[Common Sense Al]

And as I already stated, obviously in the hugest of minorities here, if three consenting adults what to commit to a multi-party marriage I have no problem with that.

Yep, and if the minority gets what they want with gay marriage (against the majority - THANKFULLY), then there's no reason to think multi-party marriages won't be legal either. That'll make you even happier.

I really think your conscience is messed up and suggest you try to address that issue. Just a suggestion. But I bet you think the same of me and josh.

[HEAD]

Yep, and if the minority gets what they want with gay marriage (against the majority - THANKFULLY), then there's no reason to think multi-party marriages won't be legal either. That'll make you even happier.

I can barely keep up with the one I have. I couldn't imagine having more than one at the same time.

[linux_is_cool]

And as I already stated, obviously in the hugest of minorities here, if three consenting adults what to commit to a multi-party marriage I have no problem with that.

Yep, and if the minority gets what they want with gay marriage (against the majority - THANKFULLY), then there's no reason to think multi-party marriages won't be legal either. That'll make you even happier.

I really think your conscience is messed up and suggest you try to address that issue. Just a suggestion. But I bet you think the same of me and josh.

I agree with Mat, I don't see a problem with this either as long as all parties consent.

I wouldn't pass judgment because someone thinks differently than me, I might debate them, but I would never tell them to go get help because of it. What kind of help do you propose Al?

[Common Sense Al]

I wouldn't pass judgment because someone thinks differently than me, I might debate them, but I would never tell them to go get help because of it. What kind of help do you propose Al?

I'm always happy to point people in the right direction when I can.

Examining of conscience. Absolute morality vs relative morality. Prayer. Spirituality. Logic/evidence. Lots of good reading material available on it (lots of crap too so be careful). A good church (Catholic is best). I'm sure I'm forgetting some stuff but I think it's a start for anyone wanting to "better form" their conscience.

Oh yeah, request to join my Catholic buddies group for discussion... PM me if interested.

[HEAD]

A good church (Catholic is best).

Isn't that the church that allows you to pray to God as well as other people? And isn't this the church that says you have to confess to a fallible person instead of going straight to God himself? Just checking.

[Common Sense Al]

A good church (Catholic is best).

Isn't that the church that allows you to pray to God as well as other people? And isn't this the church that says you have to confess to a fallible person instead of going straight to God himself? Just checking.

Yes, you can pray to the God or the saints... have you ever asked anyone on earth to pray for you? Then what is wrong with asking the saints to pray for you? They are alive as well... in heaven.

As for confessing, you are confessing to God through a fallible person which has been given the power (from God) to forgive sins. This is in the bible.

[matj6876]

I really think your conscience is messed up and suggest you try to address that issue. Just a suggestion. But I bet you think the same of me and josh.

think you mean morals here instead of conscience? My conscience (by definition) is dictated by the alignment of my actions with my morals. I've gotta believe I'm OK on that front... I sleep well at night, at least when the kids are not screaming and of course after my swinging-homo-cohabiting, non voting, forum bitching, PTA agnostic, soon to be married male, dead-fish fishing friends have stopped playing their rock concert after 10pm in my oversize blue roofed tree house (visible from the golf course even behind my incorrectly stained fence) and sped off down Lantana Trail at more than 40 MPH (even in the school zone), not stopping at any stop signs.

If you meant morals then I will agree, in the eyes of your morality mine are messed up, and from my side of the fence yours come across as intolerant and so "holier-than-thou" it's scary.

I guess I'll get mine when I'm standing in front of the Pearlies and St P & the Big Man give me the old thumbs down.

[Common Sense Al]

think you mean morals here instead of conscience? My conscience (by definition) is dictated by the alignment of my actions with my morals.

No, I meant conscience as in "the inner sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives, impelling one toward right action".

If one's inner sense of what is right and wrong is incorrect (leading them to do things that are immoral but that they think are OK/moral), then they have a "malformed conscience". We probably all do to some degree... but some consciences are pretty far off the mark.

[josh]

I think we need a Religion only section.

I challenge you Al, to show me where in the bible it tells me that ANYONE other than Christ has the power or authority to forgive sins. Primary source documentation (i.e chapter and verse please).

[Common Sense Al]

I think we need a Religion only section.

I challenge you Al, to show me where in the bible it tells me that ANYONE other than Christ has the power or authority to forgive sins. Primary source documentation (i.e chapter and verse please).

That's easy...

http://www.catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp

Jesus told the apostles, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). (This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.)